weehyong:hehe.. so Firedancer will also be presenting at this year's TechEd.
Yeah! My first time...
Firedancer:What happened to the wonderful days of Sgdotnet
Easy. It is essentially the same problem Singapore is facing now. Essentially, everyone grows up and moves on.
In Buddhism speak - "Nothing is permanent". Over time - Maybe some move on in their career and up the value chain, some may get married and have children, some have the aged in their families to care for.
In short, everyone has evolving and ever-changing roles. The problem is not having the torch-bearer to pass the torch to. Many people just dont buy community work. The fact that "There were wonderful days of SgDotNet" signals a place in time where the ppl here have made a difference, big or small, in someone else's life and that, in itself, is a difference.
This community is always open to someone who would like to share the torch the current leaders are carrying now.
~Softwaremaker (BLOG) M. Twain: "I didn't have time to write a short letter, so I wrote a long one instead"
Firedancer: I don't think anyone can just open up an online forum/site and just say to the users, "Nah! Go make it interesting". Similarly, you can't open a shop and expect customers to come without doing anything i.e. advertising (unless you sell damn good products).
I don't think anyone can just open up an online forum/site and just say to the users, "Nah! Go make it interesting". Similarly, you can't open a shop and expect customers to come without doing anything i.e. advertising (unless you sell damn good products).
Well, I don't think a shop selling a service is the same as a community. A shop sells something you need. A community to a certain extend, does not. A community fuelled by meeting needs of members is nothing more than a helpdesk. Once the needs is met, the community becomes cold.
But if a community is build on gathering like minded people who wants to discuss what interest them, the community will florish.
I'm not saying, "Nah! Go make it interesting", but rather, "Guys, do your part to make the community warm." Council members are already tied up with organising, and trying to get things done, like fixing up the event system which broke when upgrading the forum. If we keep trying to think of interesting topics, we do not have time left for ourselves.
Best Regards, Kit Kai, MVP (SharePoint Portal Server)
Just to back my point with a real-life concrete example. Look at this forum. http://www.singaporebrides.com/forumboard. The owner set this up to make money, but members are there because all of them share a common need. It's either renovation, wedding, what have you. Some of the thread are still alive because many form friends helping each other, while others are dead because their needs are met. Why stay around when it no longer benefit them. Many of my current neighbours also met in the forum. One of the neighbour started organising offline outings, so that we can discuss renovation stuff, and form friendships.
After a while, some of us feel that the forum isn't good enough to meet out needs. We set up a new private forum at http://www.phpbbserver.com/akayama/index.php?mforum=akayama, strictly for neighbours (which requires verification from the administrators before they are allowed to access them, so no point trying to create an account to see what is going on inside). Till date, administrators had a relatively easy job, where all they need to do is to verify the identity of the new comers, and take care of some nitty gritty issues, which doesn't need a lot of time. The community has a life of its own, each day having new post that affect our daily lives. Sure, some have left after meeting their needs, while others are still there because renovation is still going on, and time will only tell if they will continue to stay. Nevertheless, the online community has its character, not because of what the leaders did, but what the members did.
As one of the co-founders of SgDotNet, I have always made my intentions clear that an online site doesnt help and we should rid of it. It is not so much the lack of effort or resources but I understand the psyc of the local online community well.
Everyone treats this as a helpdesk. We are not. Maybe, when the current crop of leaders move on, we will be. We forbid the use of advertisements, we forbid marketing or selling of services of any sort. Fact of the matter is - There is a barter going on in a community, whether you like it or not. This barter keeps it vibrant. Most of the successful online forums out there (besides the huge number of Microsoft ones) sell something - be it online ads, self-advertisements of book authors. The Microsoft ones just sell Microsoft. In this case, because there is a ready supply, demands can be met. The same cannot be said of our own SgDotNet.
These time and resources could be put to spending on better things like meetings, get-togethers and ug presentations. I am still for the fact that the online site be scrapped and free the leaders from doing better, more efficient and productive community work.
Like mentioned - there are tons tons tons of sites out there. The forums_at_Microsoft have grown to be so big that the nntp posts are fading. You shld see the number of MVPs there that are readily available to help. Afterall, doesnt MVPs come under PSS (product sales and support) ? Those in the programs know they do ... and those in PSS monitor those forums and nntp for signs of MVP activities. Just look at what I had done in the Windows Cardspace and Communication forums (http://forums.microsoft.com/MSDN/ShowForum.aspx?ForumID=784&SiteID=1) The vibrancy of the sites thrives the community.
Thats why I strongly believe in why spend and maintain resources to do something that its counterproductive ? Know the limitations and exploit the strengths. Our strengths lies in the fact that we have a small number of core leaders who are passionate about what they do and that the locals here can meet up in a common place (in MS Singapore) and interact with our members face-2-face, share free food, talk jokes and give away free prizes. We should continue to do that.
We have to remember that a lot of small successful DotNet usergroups in the US (Vermont, Redmond, Seattle, DC, etc) dont have an online web presence. Why have one if there is a BIG giant Microsoft forum out there who are watched and validated by the product teams themselves? They trade speakers, topics and meet up once a month and actually shake hands with all the local members. NOW - That IS a community.
Lets see how this evolves from here. I would be glad to be proven wrong.
The fact that there are differing posts and opinions to this thread simply indicates that SGDN is not that dead afterall.
Allow me to re-emphasize our cause for SGDN - We help motivated developers discover the best ways to use .Net Technology. Our online interaction is definitely not the sole form of interaction.
SGDN organises monthly UG meetings - for professionals and students alike, academia competitions, community pet projects, social gatherings, joint meetings w/other UG etc etc etc....
What's our niche? SGDN was not and does not seek to be a online expert gathering corner. We seek to be a closely bonded community to grow our .NET knowledge together. Prove of it? Simple, hop down to one of our UG meetings and chat w/the core team. Lots of interactions, gossips and news are exchanged in the most traditional and effective form -> Verbally. Online interaction simply <quote>support questions generated</quote> ...
One thing for sure, the core team is committed, until we go away or leave the community or "retire", the online and offline interaction will stay and we'll support it. Thing is, there's only a handful of us and we all have our bandwidth limitations.
microlau Blog: http://community.sgdotnet.org/blogs/microlau
microlau:The fact that there are differing posts and opinions to this thread simply indicates that SGDN is not that dead afterall.
Cool huh how a post like this can bring back veterans?! Now, just waiting for Icelava.
*Wicked*
I have only been briefly observing. Which brings back the point I stated in the beginning - people need to have the freedom to choose how to spend their time.
I was on reservist a few weeks back, of when my grandmother was hospitalised and passed away, and coming back I am now leading a new project, of when i was also preparing to take 070-301 (MSF, which I failed ). I am also intentionally spending less time thinking about work to bring some entertaining balance to my life.
As softwaremaker states, nobody can do it voluntarily forever; there has to be more people.
The melody of logic will always play out the truth. ~ Narumi Ayumu, Spiral
icelava: (MSF, which I failed ).
(MSF, which I failed ).
Pal, you used your right hand to reach for your left ear .
FD, I wish you're in SG, not KL. We need more brainjuice like you with us.. How about considering an internal transfer down south?
Softwaremaker: We have to remember that a lot of small successful DotNet usergroups in the US (Vermont, Redmond, Seattle, DC, etc) dont have an online web presence. Why have one if there is a BIG giant Microsoft forum out there who are watched and validated by the product teams themselves? They trade speakers, topics and meet up once a month and actually shake hands with all the local members. NOW - That IS a community.
It is ok to look to those forums but just because they are bigger and better, that doesn't mean SGDN should close-down. SGDN is catering for the SG audience (and abroad as well). Not everyone can fly there and shake hands with the people there ya know.
microlau: FD, I wish you're in SG, not KL. We need more brainjuice like you with us.. How about considering an internal transfer down south?
Eventhough I'm not in SG, you guys still have 'fibre optics' tapped straight into my brain. Not sure about the transfer though, I still kinda like it here.
Exactly. You just answered your own questions.
Look at SgDotNet Forums now - it is exactly what the forums at Microsoft are doing better and as iterated, SgDotNet doesnt aim to be an online support forum. As you probably have guessed by now, traffic is weak and I suspect we would see a reduction in fourms, not an increase.
Firedancer: Not everyone can fly there and shake hands with the people there ya know.
While I dont see the need for that hint of sacarsm, I am afraid what you DONT see, and hence cannot appreciate, is the offline community at work which, Alvin has tried very hard to hint, is very vibrant and active. I feel closer to the online community here as well. It is nice to see familiarity with the same faces at our meeting and gatherings and free food for all.
The other very successful online MS Communities here, such as the SQLServer, Small Business Server and the Windows User groups are all very active, vibrant offline ones. Look at their online forums - no one goes there. The only very successful online community is the PocketPC one. It is so famous it is internationally recognized. However, browse to their site and see how much vendor selling they have to do to get to where they are. I am sure the current leaders have no qualms about following that path as well, if you can identify who would do that selling.
The levarage of strengths is very important here. There is much leverage to tap on during the regular outings and presentation meetings to sit down face-2-face and talk about everything, including technologies. Any .NET specific questions that are not answered can always be taken back home and propagated to the Microsoft forums.
We ALL have to understand the work / power and potential of the community. It is the community. It doesnt have to be specific to Singapore. As long as someone else everywhere, even in Timbuktu is helped, the community has done its work and hopefully it carries forward by Joe Timbuktu to help Jane Japan.
While its true the search engines are making it easier, Google and MSN is not necessarily the first place ppl go to for help with .NET specific questions. To help better propogation to make sure that the correct answer (validated by the product group) gets to the most number of people, it is important to populate it in the best and biggest forums out there. Putting it in a smaller forum (that is not searched, indexed or marketed) only creates a weak link.
Softwaremaker:Exactly. You just answered your own questions. Look at SgDotNet Forums now - it is exactly what the forums at Microsoft are doing better and as iterated, SgDotNet doesnt aim to be an online support forum. As you probably have guessed by now, traffic is weak and I suspect we would see a reduction in fourms, not an increase.
Sgdotnet wasn't an online support forum back then and the online community was vibrant. Sgdotnet isn't an online support forum today so why the online community cannot continue to be vibrant now?
Softwaremaker:While I dont see the need for that hint of sacarsm, I am afraid what you DONT see, and hence cannot appreciate, is the offline community at work which, Alvin has tried very hard to hint, is very vibrant and active. I feel closer to the online community here as well. It is nice to see familiarity with the same faces at our meeting and gatherings and free food for all.
No doubt every community has offline gatherings. I'm not questioning that. I would just want/hope to see the Sgdotnet online forums like how it was before. Even the Sgdotnet blogs are so stale nowadays. I think only Darren updates his blog.
Softwaremaker:We ALL have to understand the work / power and potential of the community. It is the community. It doesnt have to be specific to Singapore. As long as someone else everywhere, even in Timbuktu is helped, the community has done its work and hopefully it carries forward by Joe Timbuktu to help Jane Japan.
So how is Joe Timbuktu suppose to reach out to Jane when he doesn't know about a place call Sgdotnet? You said it doesn't have to be specific to Singapore but your previous statements just hinted that everything is focused on the offline UG meetings in Singapore. You even suggested that maybe to close down the forums. So how is Joe gonna help anyone now?
Firedancer:Sgdotnet wasn't an online support forum back then and the online community was vibrant. Sgdotnet isn't an online support forum today so why the online community cannot continue to be vibrant now?
Firedancer:No doubt every community has offline gatherings. I'm not questioning that. I would just want/hope to see the Sgdotnet online forums like how it was before. Even the Sgdotnet blogs are so stale nowadays. I think only Darren updates his blog.
Me and Icelava have answered that questions why. Refer to our earlier posts why, starting from here. Mainly - see the point about nothing being permanant, everyone moving on and the fact that there are no torch-bearers now. Nothing is permanent. No one updates their blog forever. Not you, not Scoble, not Darren. Some people just move on faster and do other things, change career paths or have taken on committments that require a re-prioritization of their lives, outlook and principles. It is not fair to expect that things in the community to remain the same. There are tons of blogs out there that are constantly being updated. Vote with your feet. I have always stressed to people to always do that. If you dont like to work in a company, dont complain - just leave. It is counter-productive to argue and whine about things that one cannot control. Many people cannot deal with change and adaptation. The same applies to everything.
Firedancer:So how is Joe Timbuktu suppose to reach out to Jane when he doesn't know about a place call Sgdotnet? You said it doesn't have to be specific to Singapore but your previous statements just hinted that everything is focused on the offline UG meetings in Singapore. You even suggested that maybe to close down the forums. So how is Joe gonna help anyone now?
It seems you are misunderstanding my points from this post and are not getting my points across . My anwsers as summarized:
Softwaremaker: Like mentioned - there are tons tons tons of sites out there. The forums_at_Microsoft have grown to be so big that the nntp posts are fading. You shld see the number of MVPs there that are readily available to help. Afterall, doesnt MVPs come under PSS (product sales and support) ? Those in the programs know they do ... and those in PSS monitor those forums and nntp for signs of MVP activities. Just look at what I had done in the Windows Cardspace and Communication forums (http://forums.microsoft.com/MSDN/ShowForum.aspx?ForumID=784&SiteID=1) The vibrancy of the sites thrives the community.
Softwaremaker: The levarage of strengths is very important here. There is much leverage to tap on during the regular outings and presentation meetings to sit down face-2-face and talk about everything, including technologies. Any .NET specific questions that are not answered can always be taken back home and propagated to the Microsoft forums.
Softwaremaker: While its true the search engines are making it easier, Google and MSN is not necessarily the first place ppl go to for help with .NET specific questions. To help better propogation to make sure that the correct answer (validated by the product group) gets to the most number of people, it is important to populate it in the best and biggest forums out there. Putting it in a smaller forum (that is not searched, indexed or marketed) only creates a weak link.
You will infer that I am saying that all forums questions should be directed at the biggest and best forums out there. Then ALL-IN-THE-WORLD will benefit from an answer that is validated correctly. SgDotNet should be an offline community, nothing more and nothing less. There still can be a site - but no forums (This is my suggestion, only).
The same reasons (as agreed by the moderators in our discussion) will answer your question here: http://forums.sgdotnet.org/forums/26592/ShowThread.aspx#26592
Fellas, as the UG lead together with the council members, we will not abandon SGDN's _online_ and _offline_ activities. True to state that our online interaction has paled in comparison to when we started (or even one year ago), but it's just part and parcel of every growing community or user group. When we started SGDN, we have almost 15+ moderators actively 'guarding' each forum and many interactions coming on board and asking questions. Today, many of them have moved on, which is essentially with Icelava and SWM has mentioned. Many of the core members are either too occupied with work, going through important phases of life or lose interest in support helpdesk forums.
With lesser resources around and still a community to 'operate', we had to ensure that the offline activities are taken priority over the online ones. While we struggle to find an identity amidst all the forums which are well-supported by product groups and many other MVPs, we can only seek to build a closely knitted one in our region or country.
As I've iterated before, we will continue to keep SGDN together, both online and offline. It's just a rough patch we're going through and we're thinly stretched.
Let's close this thread. I recognise all parties concerns and views and truly appreciate it. Again, the very fact that so many views are aired simply shows that we are still fundamentally a close community.