Scotts echos on the unImportance of certifications

Scott recently echoed on what I have always believed in and I have made it known to many people I have met, interviewed or worked with.

http://www.hanselman.com/blog/ScottHanselman11SuccessfulLargeProjects3OpenSourceApplications1CollossalFailure.aspx

With the (more and more) imcompetent people I have had to worked with in recent years, my beliefs holds even more truth now. Stories like this are so so so true as I have come across them before.

I really wonder what members/readers who have so many certifications and are even striving for more and their current thought processes. Have you really learnt anything valuable and applicable ? When does it stop ? For sure - the roll-outs of certifications will never ever stop. I understand that it would be a good starting entry point but some people really get their kicks out of accumulating these certs.

In my own opinion, the exception to this would be the few certifications out there that touches on your project portfolios and experiences. However, these are few and far in between - for now. I believe it will change for the better.

For people I interview, I'd rather see them say "I have done stage X of this e-Trading platform. In fact, if you look at this production code, it still has my name on it" instead of saying "Look at this certification signed by Steve Ballmer, it has got my name on it". I have seen some worse - "I have trained XXX so I am capable to do this project - huh ?"

Getting hands-on, real-world project experience is invaluable. It gives you so much more deeper insight and experience than one can ever imagine. And the thing is - you dont always have to do it. Doing a few of these projects, you will be able to gain real-world value-added experience that will make you a valuable member/leader at a higher level of the project team committee.

Thoughts ? Flames ?

I agree with you that experience counts in the real world.

For some strange reasons, I like to take certifications. I have just acquired 3 new generation MS certs and planning to expand my certifications portfolio further this year. I'm like addicted to them. They are like my trophies. To-date I have 8 certs, 4 of which are Chartered Member certs and 1 Early Achiever cert. I like to do them when they are still "fresh" - Yummy

The reason that most people don't see value in certs is because they braindump through it. That makes people like me who really study for it look like a sucker but I don't care. I take the certs as a challenge or an objective that I must achieve - like climbing a mountain. I feel very happy when I get it but will immediately plan for the next take.

I do the exams genuinely and pass without feeling guilty and without doubt on my own capabilities (and knowledge). I certainly won't feel shy to flank them in front of people should the need arise because I earned them fair and square. How many times I have seen people who could only whisper "I'm MCSE" but not declare it openly?

Doing the exams early is interesting. I just went through 11 beta exams from Nov '05 to Feb '06. No dumps, no books - just go in with substance. Failed some of them but that just makes me stronger.

So far, I have not advertised them on my namecards because they are MY trophies. Also, I didn't tell my big boss about them. I plan to tell him only when he asks everyone to get them.

In summary, experience I have, cert oso I have. Best of both worlds. *Ngek* *Ngek* *Ngek*

Check out

   Ten Reasons to Hire and Develop Microsoft Certified Professionals

I guess unless you have already established your profile in the industry, many potential employers still use certs as a preliminary filter or to gauge the initial level of competence.

frankly speaking, nobody with a MCSD knows how to write custom attributes.

my point is that MSFT might have lofty goals for certifications, but most of the certified IT pros juse use braindumps.

feelite:

frankly speaking, nobody with a MCSD knows how to write custom attributes.

my point is that MSFT might have lofty goals for certifications, but most of the certified IT pros juse use braindumps.

"Nobody" is a strong word. I for one is a MCSD.NET and custom attributes (and Reflection) has been a core part of my framework. Just because you came across a few rotten apples, it doesn't mean every apple is rotten. Same goes to just because a person is certified, it doesn't mean that he/she is a walking MSDN.

The value of certification can only be realised when a person earns it legitimately. I'm quite tired of listening to those who braindump their way through certifications and then tell everyone else that certifications are useless.

I do agree with you to a certain extend but certification does help you in the early part of your career when you are fresh out of school (and with little or no working experience).

Of course, with the many questionbanks outside that sells MS exam paper, you will really have a hard time trying to find out which of those really go through the hardship of learning and those who just memorize the answers from those question banks.

I had the oppertunity to complete 2 certification (till MCSD) when I'm 19 with the kind sponsorship from microsoft, and the entire experience does provide me with a good deal of knowledge that I would have otherwise missed if I did not follow through the certification courses. I mean.. how often do we really do things other than the usual Add/Delete/Update command?

Just my thought!

Cheers

shenyizhe:

I do agree with you to a certain extend but certification does help you in the early part of your career when you are fresh out of school (and with little or no working experience).

This is the amazing part. Now how could a fresh-out-of-school figured out the prequisites?

Take from the MCAD site.

Q.		How can I determine whether I am an appropriate candidate for earning the MCAD for Microsoft .NET certification? What skills are covered?

A.

The MCAD certification is appropriate for professionals who use Microsoft technologies to develop and maintain department-level applications, components, Web or desktop clients, or back-end data services, or work in teams developing enterprise applications. To earn the MCAD credential, candidates are expected to have one to two years of relevant work experience or the equivalent in these functions. Typical job titles include programmer, programmer/analyst, and software developer.

Taken from the MCSD site.

Q.		How can I determine whether I am an appropriate candidate for earning the MCSD for Microsoft .NET certification? What skills are covered?

A.

The MCSD for Microsoft .NET credential is appropriate for professionals who design and develop leading-edge enterprise solutions with Microsoft development tools, technologies, platforms, and the Microsoft .NET Framework. The MCSD job role includes analyzing business and technical requirements, and defining the solution architecture, as well as the tasks typically conducted by MCADs—implementing the requirements and building, deploying, and maintaining the solution. We expect candidates to have at least two years of experience in a lead-developer job function. Typical job titles include software engineer, application analyst, software application developer, and technical consultant.

shenyizhe:

I mean.. how often do we really do things other than the usual Add/Delete/Update command?

Well, if you are truly an MCSD, you should know what else besides those that you need to do

shenyizhe:

I mean.. how often do we really do things other than the usual Add/Delete/Update command?

I do not mean to be derogratory, but such a statement suggests you have not developed many business applications, and the various back-end and back-bone infrastructure systems that must be in place to support them.

Getting to build applications that only simply did Add/Delete/Update would be a developer's wet dream come true. The reality of life is businesses are all very unique and very fluid. Much like software, businesses are highly malleable. Or rather, the people behind them change their minds on how they want to do things. The sheer permutations to a business' rule set can get frightening, if not just complex enough to ensure an on-going discovery of system defects and debugging (read: slipped deadlines). And all those happen even before data hits the database, and we have not talked about the myriad of triggers that update all other parts of the database or even other systems. Or the need to control various 3rd-party program processes and external services in order to orchestrate the entire solution to delivery.

So, I must once again say, "If only apps were just Add/Delete/Update...."

I actually have some comments on the actual issue of certification per se but I have to leave that for later.

Hi there,

This discussion is getting active. When I make the comment on the A/D/U part, I am talking about some of few projects that I have been working on (small size) with little business logic built into it. Having worked on projects with dev. size of 500 or more, I do agree that alot of things happen behind the scene which icelava has mentioned a few. However, when I am saying about the A/D/U part, I am referring to the context of a new developer starting up his own or just joining the industry when the project he more likely to come into contact are smaller ones (2-4man size).

Hope this clears up the air.

Firedancer,

From the requirements you stated above, I would have failed in both MCAD/MCSD. However, these are not really pre-requistes from microsoft else they won't have paid/support me in getting those when I am only 18 right?

I believe if anyone with keen interest in learning more, they are able to do well for those test although I must admit they do lose out when comes to real-life implementation as what we learnt are only from the books.

I knew it when I type the comment on A/D/M, I would get a lot of fire ;-) I'm just making a comment that is realistic to most of the new-comer projects that people get for their first few months.  (not that I say no business logic is involved, but most of those projects relied heavily on writing codes that A/D/M)

shenyizhe:

...From the requirements you stated above, I would have failed in both MCAD/MCSD. However, these are not really pre-requistes from microsoft else they won't have paid/support me in getting those when I am only 18 right?

I believe if anyone with keen interest in learning more, they are able to do well for those test although I must admit they do lose out when comes to real-life implementation as what we learnt are only from the books.

These statements are exactly why I think Scott is right. Why do u think MS will pay you or is so interested to getting ppl certified ? Do you really think they are interested in making you learn ?

You can learn more on the job than anywhere else. When I interview people, I dont ask or even look at certifications. I asked and looked for signs of passion - and I am very good at finding those.

shenyizhe:

From the requirements you stated above, I would have failed in both MCAD/MCSD. However, these are not really pre-requistes from microsoft else they won't have paid/support me in getting those when I am only 18 right?

That's why I said it is amazing (Btw, those requirements are taken from the Certifications Q&A site.)

shenyizhe:

I believe if anyone with keen interest in learning more, they are able to do well for those test although I must admit they do lose out when comes to real-life implementation as what we learnt are only from the books.

I have went through most of the books for MCSD and I don't see any real-world experience being taught in most of them. So, I'm really wondering how could someone actually know how to do "Requirements Gathering", "Recommending Solution Architecture" and all that from reading books without being involved in an enterprise environment or ever talking to a customer. It is amazing how they get through the 70-300 exam (if they don't cheat).

I got a chance to interview a fresh-grad with MCSD long time ago and during the interview she couldn't even figure out the basic classes in ADO.NET. So I gave her an advice to not "cheat" when it comes to certification and sent her home. I'm very worried about recruiting such candidates into my organization because it tells me that they will do whatever it takes (ethical or non-ethical) to impress people. For what I know, they may back-stab other staff, steal credit and do lots of unethical things to please me when they are in the company. 

shenyizhe:

I knew it when I type the comment on A/D/M, I would get a lot of fire ;-) I'm just making a comment that is realistic to most of the new-comer projects that people get for their first few months.  (not that I say no business logic is involved, but most of those projects relied heavily on writing codes that A/D/M)

Umm... You really shot yourself when you mentioned that it is all about CRUD (Create, Read, Update and Deleted). Now Icelava is going to pour lava and ice you. There are more than just writing code when it comes to software development. In time you should be able to get the exposure. At the mean time, just grow at your own pace.

Softwaremaker:

These statements are exactly why I think Scott is right. Why do u think MS will pay you or is so interested to getting ppl certified ? Do you really think they are interested in making you learn ?

This is so sad.

But I think Scott's comments do not leave room for those people who have both  I don't suscribe to "My Way or The Highway" ideologies. He mentioned that it is paiseh to put all the Certification Titles under the name but I don't think there is anything wrong because I have seen people who put up an entire powerpoint slide about their working experience (and spend 20 - 30 mins talking about their work history) before presenting a topic. I think that is more paiseh.

Anyway, maybe you guys can put in your comments about certification and I will forward them to the Certification group in my company.

*Hugs*

shenyizhe:

Having worked on projects with dev. size of 500 or more, I do agree that alot of things happen behind the scene which icelava has mentioned a few. However, when I am saying about the A/D/U part, I am referring to the context of a new developer starting up his own or just joining the industry when the project he more likely to come into contact are smaller ones (2-4man size).

Having you worked with such large-scale projects and having the level of complexity scale to match the experience level of the developer, then I must comment that is a rather good practice that I wished most, if not all, development teams conduct. Especially for small teams, for such structures also means everybody's coverage across the technological/application layers have to be spread far wider. Even projects of these sizes are never just about CRUD; that is merely a necessary functionality to persisting data, and never really about what the heart of the application is about. Having been through enough of such cases, I can say is putting the inexperienced developer on his/her own to work on all these without guidance and mentoring results in less-than-stellar (in fact, sub-par) engineering quality.

Having said that, a developer who solely (and passively) relies on guidance and mentoring is one that should not be hired. The developer must recognise his/her own areas of ignorance and actively seek education and training. It has to be acted upon both ways from the developer as well as the employer; claps are best achieved with two hands.

Hi Firedancer,

I believe icelava is not going to kill me with his lava just yet ;-)

If you read closely, what I am saying is that for small projects, sometimes people just concentrate too much on CRUD functions with little business logic behind them and for this group of small projects, people do not get a chance to come into contact with more complex stuff that is being taught in mcad courses.

I have no doubts that true world learning experience beats anyone who scored full marks for all the exams those certification requires.

And yes, after going through the courses conducted by MS before going to those exam, I do learn new things from there. As I've said, I am doing those test and going through those course at a 18yr old perspective. If however, you are going to compare me at that time with someone who has been in the industry for 5years, he might have threw those course materials away.

These are just my thoughts and hey! I am new here, lots of things to learn from you guys ;-)

 

*takes cover*